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Ian McDiarmid: Dark Force Rising

January 24, 2002

The Man of Mystery

He was Senator Palpatine in The Phantom Menace and the Emperor in Return of the Jedi. Now, in an exclusive Insider interview, Ian McDiarmid talks about bridging the gap as Supreme Chancellor Palpatine in Episodes II and III of the Star Wars saga.
When Darth Vader first burst on the scene in 1977, storming into the Rebel Blockade Runner amid smoke, stormtroopers, and blaster fire, it was impossible to think of him as anything but the ultimate villain of Star Wars. It seemed there could be no soul darker, no mind more evil, no heart more cold.

That was before we met the Emperor.

As Darth Vader himself put it, “The Emperor is not as forgiving as I am.”

Sure enough, in Return of the Jedi, we learned quickly that Vader was but a pawn in his master’s dark game of galactic domination. The Emperor, from the moment he first touched down on Death Star II, made it clear that it was he who was in charge all along. By the end, we saw that Vader could actually be a hero, and that the ultimate villain of the Star Wars saga was a hunched-over old man with piercing yellow eyes, black robes, and a distinctively chilling voice.

To pull off the crucial role of the Emperor (who first appeared briefly as a hologram voiced by Clive Revill in The Empire Strikes Back), George Lucas and Jedi director Richard Marquand turned to Ian McDiarmid, a charismatic British stage actor then in his mid-30s. McDiarmid sunk his teeth into his first major film role, emerging from marathon make-up sessions to create a modern day icon of cinematic evil.

No wonder that 16 years later, Lucas again enlisted McDiarmid to play a young Senator Palpatine in Star Wars: Episode I The Phantom Menace, making him one of the few performers from the classic trilogy to reprise his character in the prequels.

Once again drawing on a tremendous reservoir of experience in the theatre, McDiarmid (who in the meantime had also appeared in the Frank Oz-directed comedy Dirty Rotten Scoundrels and the Oscar-nominated Restoration) played Palpatine as a smooth charmer who manages to maneuver Chancellor Valorum out of office’ and himself in’ even as his home planet of Naboo is under siege, and all with a smile on his face and a spring in his step.

Naturally, McDiarmid returns for Episode II, luxuriating in his character’s new position as Supreme Chancellor and looking forward to continuing his rise in Episode III. No longer the new kid on the block, McDiarmid is now a Star Wars vet and fan favorite from both the classic and prequel eras.

In between filming Episodes I and II, the Scottish-born actor, an early drama school classmate of Denis Lawson (Wedge), took a role in Tim Burton’s blockbuster Sleepy Hollow (with Star Wars actors Christopher Lee and Ray Park) and continued to focus on running the Almeida Theatre, the thriving and popular North London playhouse where he serves as joint artistic director with Jonathan Kent.

The duo were awarded the Theatrical Achievement of the Year award by London’s Evening Standard in 1998 for their work transforming the once-obscure playhouse into one of the region’s most acclaimed theatres.

McDiarmid was starring at the Almeida as Prospero in Shakespeare’s The Tempest when the Insider caught up with him. The production was the last at the theatre before a 14-month renovation project, during which time the Almeida will continue to produce plays at a converted bus station across town.

The last time we interviewed McDiarmid (Insider #37), Episode I hadn’t come out yet, and we had tons of questions about Return of the Jedi. But this time, the first thing we wanted to talk about was Episode II — even though so much about the story is still top secret.

Let’s get this out of the way right off the bat. There is a lot about your work in the prequels that we can’t talk about yet. Why is it necessary to keep so much about Palpatine a mystery?

The principal answer to that, of course, is that he is a man of mystery. That is how he exercises, maintains, and increases his power — by choosing what he’s public about. He’s the great political manipulator of all time.

I found it interesting in Episode I to watch the wheels turning in Senator Palpatine’s mind. We sense he’s up to no good, yet we never see him actually do anything sinister.

Yes, that’s probably the most interesting aspect of the part for me. Palpatine appears to be a hard-working politician — and when you say the word politician, immediately you think about equivocation, which is the nature of the job. But at the same time, I know that underneath all that is an evil soul. The undercurrents are always there in his mind and in his gut.

Everything he does is an act of pure hypocrisy, and that’s interesting to play. I suppose it’s rather like playing Iago. All the characters in the play — including Othello until the end — think that “Honest Iago” is a decent guy doing his job, and he’s quite liked. But at the same time there’s a tremendous evil subconscious in operation.

The Exercise of Power

How do you as an actor convey trustworthiness to the characters around Palpatine while simultaneously signaling to the audience not to trust him?

I suppose that, in a sense, he is hyper-sincere — defensively sincere. He is a supreme actor. He has to be even more convincing than somebody who isn’t behaving in a schizophrenic fashion, so he’s extra charming, or extra professional — and for those who are looking for clues, that’s almost where you can see them. He’s super-sincere.
There’s a moment in one scene of the new film where tears almost appear in his eye. These are crocodile tears, but for all those in the movie, and perhaps watching the movie itself, they’ll see he is apparently moved — and of course, he is. He can just do it. He can, as it were, turn it on. And I suppose for him, it’s also a bit of a turn-on — the pure exercise of power is what he’s all about. That’s the only thing he’s interested in and the only thing that can satisfy him — which makes him completely fascinating to play, because it is an evil soul. He is more evil than the devil. At least Satan fell — he has a history, and it’s one of revenge.

But the Emperor — well, I don’t know all the details, but who does of the Sith? — is an independent agent who just lives for the exercise of power. He doesn’t know what scruples are, let alone have any. The only emotion that manifests itself truly is the one seen just before he meets his end, if that’s what he meets, in Jedi — and then that’s pure anger, when he realizes that he hasn’t succeeded in manipulating young Skywalker. So he has to kill him, and he tries to do that with unadulterated fury.

He has no sorrow about his mistakes, just pure anger?

Just anger. And his great strength is that he’s not fearful, which of course is also young Skywalker’s great strength, and ultimately Vader’s too. It’s understanding both sides of fear — how it’s important not to be fearful in order to not stop yourself from doing things you believe and know to be right. At the same time, it’s on the dark side — terror is what he specializes in. It’s what motivates him and governs his every action — his understanding of the nature of terror. He believes that everybody can be terrorized, or seduced by one thing or another.

But he’s ultimately proven wrong.

Yes, he is, but not until the end of the movie, at the very critical moment — as he succeeded with the father, will he succeed with the son? And he doesn’t, because the father refuses to let him succeed with the son — which is what makes it fascinating.

Did you ever sit down and discuss Palpatine’s backstory with George Lucas?

No, not really. But it’s what I feel to be true about the part — and by and large, I think it’s the same instinct that George has responded to.

But as George says, the fans always know what’s going on because they’ve absorbed the story in all its detail. You can sort of work it out. The story hasn’t changed. It’s a story George set out to tell when he made Episode IV all those years ago, and now he’s just telling it.

Do you know for sure whether you’re doing Episode III?

Yes, I will be doing Episode III, and that is now a fact.

Has he given you a specific idea about how Palpatine will evolve in Episode III?

He’s always said that Episode III will be the darkest. George feels people won’t necessarily like it because of that, but my feeling is the reverse. I think they’ll like it even more, because I think people are fascinated by the whole dark side of the saga. That’s why Vader is so interesting. He’s complicated, as we later find out. It’s that apparently seductive darkness that fascinates people. They want to know more about it. They’re not attracted by evil, but they’re attracted by the nature of it. It’s a very interesting thing to observe.

Why do you think people are so intrigued by evil characters?

I don’t know, but I think it might go back to your initial question — because it’s mysterious. It’s underneath. Milton, when he created Satan in Paradise Lost, which is one of the greatest creations in all of literature, made Satan as evil as Satan should be. But at the same time, Milton found him sympathetic as a soul in torment — his best poetic writing is for that character.

But that’s not the case with the Emperor, which makes it so interesting. He doesn’t have any of those potentially redemptive qualities. He hasn’t fallen. I imagine he’s evil from birth, which is a terrible thing to imagine. He’s not human.

So he has no awareness of how different he is from other people?

No — no conscience, none of these things. He’s untrammeled by humanity, by any feelings of guilt or responsibility or any of these things that bother all of us to a degree. And that’s why, up to a point, he’s entirely able to exercise his will. Of course, he’s immensely clever, too.

When you were shooting Episode II, were you thinking about how you were going to evolve the character from film to film?

I don’t really think about this. I play the lines, in the hope that something will emerge that’ll be interesting and useful to the movie. That’s what you do between action and cut, in these short bursts that are called scenes. But that’s what acting is — it’s about responding to the moment. And then you abandon it to George — but that’s one of the things I like about film. It’s the opposite from the theatre. You surrender your performance for other people to choose bits from, whereas in the theatre, you’re in control of the whole part, every evening, and the director moves to one side. It’s neither better nor worse — they’re just different experiences, and I find them equally fascinating.

A Return in Episode II

How has Palpatine — now the Supreme Chancellor — changed between Episode I and Episode II?

Well, we’re about 10 years on from Episode I, so he’s had a chance to get on with it. Of course, his status has obviously gone up, because his office is better. The power has now manifested itself. His office — through the windows, there will be lots of stuff added later on — was a big set, a real power base.
The costumes, too, have got much more edge to them, I think, than the mere Senator had. So we see the trappings of power. And I’m also slightly aged. In the last film, I had a fairly standard make-up on, but now, they’re starting to crinkle my face.

I’m sure it was still easier than the make-up you were under for Return of the Jedi.

Yes — that was a four-hour job, initially, although we got it down to about two-and-a-half in the end. But this was just a little bit of latex here and there, a little bit of skin-scrunching.

The last time we spoke (Insider #37), we talked a lot about Return of the Jedi. So this time, I’m just wondering, nearly 20 years later, what sticks out most in your mind about your first Star Wars experience?

Actually, I looked at it again the other day, because I was watching the re-issue of the three videos, and I thought, “Oh God, there’s such a young person underneath all that.” I have nothing but happy memories, because, as you know, it just happened out of the blue. I met George and I didn’t know what the part was or what I’d be required to do, because it was very secretive in those days. I just knew that he was called the Emperor, which didn’t sound bad. And I was right. I also remember I liked that chair.

What can you tell us about your latest Star Wars experience on Episode II? I understand you were in the first scene shot.

Well, the script came to us quite late, but I knew I was going to be in the first scenes because of the nature of the scheduling. I wondered if it might be because I was in the first scene shot for Episode I, or if it was coincidence, but indeed I was in the first filmed scene of Episode II.

There I was, with this new but absolutely committed and fantastic Australian crew, on that first day. Of course, everyone was properly nervous. I, at least, knew what it was like to stand on a pod against blue screen because I’d done that in Leavesden [for Episode I]. But I didn’t know what it was like to stand in the Supreme Chancellor’s pod, because that belonged to Terence Stamp in the last movie — so that was new.

We had a whole 12-hour day of filming, two scenes, on me, with a lot of speeches to do. So I had a bit of an opportunity to re-familiarize myself with [the character], in a highly pressured context because it was the first day, with a completely new crew. It was scary, but it was also exciting. Quite often, when the atmosphere is like that, when a lot is demanded of you, you sometimes find you have a little more in yourself than you thought you had. I hope that was true of me on the first day.

You had to rise to that occasion.

Yes — quite literally, because I was so many feet up in the air!

What was the mood like on that first day of shooting Episode II?

Well, it was very good, but I had the supreme advantage of being familiar with the set and knowing George and Rick and most of the team. But like everyone else, I didn’t know the Australian crew, and they of course didn’t know George because he had not long arrived. So they didn’t really know what to expect, and they were, as usual, thinking, “Oh my God, it’s Star Wars,” as everybody does.

But it was a great, practical day, and we got everything done that we needed to do. They work very hard — that’s the way Rick runs it and the way George likes to work, and I don’t think it’s a bad thing. You really do pump it out over a short period. The pressure is there all the time. But I like that — I always work better under that kind of pressure.

It seemed like, despite the pressure, everybody on the set was very friendly.

Oh, yes. The atmosphere was great, and it was terrific being in Australia. I’d never been to Australia before. It was a big difference from being down the road in London, but Star Wars and Australia go together very well. There’s something about the whole atmosphere there. The people are terrific — they’re so full of life, and they have a highly developed sense of the absurd, which always helps.

How long were you in Sydney?

I was out for a period of just under a month initially, and then I went back to do another scene a few weeks later. So I was there for about five weeks in all.

You mentioned the script coming in at the last minute for Episode II. How much time did you have with it before you started shooting?

Well, the script was very late indeed. I arrived in Sydney on a Wednesday, and I was given the script when I got off the plane. There wasn’t one available before that. And then we were shooting on Monday. I thought, inevitably, it will be in the Senate, and I’ll have some long speeches, and that was indeed the case.

Does it affect your acting when you don’t have much time to refine your performance?

Everybody likes to get it as soon as possible so they can immerse themselves in it, but I knew the situation. I was staying in a friend’s apartment who wasn’t there, so I had the peace and quiet to work on it over those few days, which is what I did.

Of Acting and Actors

What did you think of the script when you finally got it?

I liked it very much. George had always said that Episode II would be a love story, and it has a real sort of courtly delicacy about it. The whole relationship between Padmé and Anakin is very moving and delicately done, but it’s also quite passionate. It’s a strong relationship and a strong attraction that they have, and that’s present in the script. Episode I was the introduction, the grand overture to the whole project.

Episode II is the big step of the story, when they get together and when Anakin learns. He’s a great and fast learner and has a tremendous instinct. He grows up very quickly, perhaps too quickly.

When you first read the script, was there anything in there where you thought, “Oh, I can’t wait to do this?”

Yes. I could see how the character had developed. He wasn’t seeking a power base — he had one. So there was the whole notion of being able to enjoy that and use that fact to take things further. In the previous film, I had to try and persuade people, but now he’s more at home and more centered, and he has to do less. That doesn’t mean to say that he doesn’t go about things in a persuasive way.

Was there anything unique about shooting Episode II, or was it just business as usual for Star Wars?

It was nice to be able to have more to do with some of the characters — for example, to have a scene with Sam Jackson. And to be in the same movie as Christopher Lee — that’s almost an ambition realized, as far as I’m concerned, because I think he’s one of the two aristocrats of screen menace, along with Peter Cushing. I like to think I’ve picked up a few tips from him over the years. His Dracula — I’m sure he’s sick to death of hearing about it — is one of the great cinematic creations.

He’s a terrific man, charming and amusing and highly sophisticated. I think he’s particularly pleased to be in the movie because Peter Cushing, who was his good friend and working partner for so many years, was in the original Star Wars movie. I think that’s somehow appropriate and quite moving.

What was your first impression of Hayden Christensen, the new Anakin Skywalker?

I watched a rehearsal he had with George and Natalie, and I could see immediately that he is a fine actor. It was also immediately apparent that they had a real acting rapport and chemistry. It was great to see Natalie again, too, because she’s so wise. That’s the word I always think of with Natalie. She’s not very old, but she has a maturity that I really admire.

To me, one of the greatest little moments in the last film was your brief encounter with Anakin — and it was one of the last scenes shot, just a couple months before Episode I was released.

Did you take as much delight in playing that scene as your character took in telling Anakin — that he’d be watching his career “with great interest?”

Yes, the scene with Palpatine and Anakin. I tried not to put too much into that. George said, “Just say it,” and of course, he’s quite right. Knowing what it really means, it takes care of itself. And once again, the character was being charming — a boy had served his planet well, and he was acknowledging it, and that was it.

I think George had originally thought that we shouldn’t meet, and then having seen it all together, he thought that we should recognize each other, but just in a casual way. We filmed that one Saturday morning, very much later, and then I went to do some ADR [additional dialogue recording] work in the afternoon.

Did you notice any difference in George as a director from Episode I to Episode II?

I suppose just an increasing sense of relaxation. I know he initially hadn’t decided that he was going to direct both II and III, but he did say during I that he was really enjoying working with the actors. As far as I’m concerned, it’s entirely preferable, because then you have a direct line, as it were. Also, he doesn’t say very much, and I like that too, because what he does say then is entirely specific. That’s helpful, because the more specific a director can be, the more helpful he is.

You also recently worked with Tim Burton on Sleepy Hollow. What was that like?

It was the same kind of atmosphere. Tim — and George is like this too — would see something that happened, or that you were doing, and go for more of that. So it was a process that was always evolving. It wasn’t as if you were just filming a preconceived storyboard. You did feel that it was happening in the moment, which is when acting is really good. You feel that each take could be something fresh.

Other Projects

Sleepy Hollow brought you back to Leavesden Studios, where you shot The Phantom Menace with much of the same crew. But how was making Sleepy Hollow different from shooting Star Wars?

It was nice to play a character who was completely different from the Emperor. I like to play a character with fear. Poor Dr. Lancaster, he’s always in a state of terror — and he has good reason to be, because they’ve all behaved badly and they’re waiting to be found out. He was corroded by guilt. He couldn’t be farther away from the Emperor, who doesn’t know the word — he knows about corrosion, but he doesn’t know about guilt.

It was also interesting because there were enormous sets in that film. There was a whole forest in Leavesden as opposed to just sections, which we would have had in Star Wars. There was some blue screen, but not much. They built the whole village, which was truly spectacular. It looked very theatrical — I kept thinking, “There are so many plays we could do on this great forest set.” So from that point of view, it was completely different. But in its own way, the production design was as exciting as Star Wars.

Does having the set there in its entirety make a difference when you’re acting?

It doesn’t. They’re terrific to look at, but you’re always filming in small sections anyway. Movies are always done in small nuggets, and everything in front of you is a kind of chaos — it’s machines and people staring, and willing it to be right, and doing their best to make it right. Sets on movies, to me, are always about small contained areas. So it doesn’t matter whether something’s going to be filled in behind you later or whether it’s the actual thing. It’s a tiny corner of order among the chaos, and that’s one of the things I like about movies. Because if the camera moved two inches to one side, you would see how absurd it all was. You just have people standing there scratching their heads or chewing gum.

I hear that your current stage production of The Tempest has nearly movie-level special effects. Is it true you’ve got rain coming down, and you’re kind of destroying the stage and not really worrying about the damage?

Yes, well, we have some renovation work to do on the theatre. Part of the project is we need a new stage and we had to raise the roof. So we thought that this was the perfect play to go out on, because as you know from The Tempest, Ariel should fly, and we thought it would be great if he could not only fly but swim.

So the whole of the stage is a giant water tank. It doesn’t look like that to begin with — it looks as if we just put some water on the stage and built a pond, but we haven’t. We’ve sunk it. There’s a wonderful moment when Ariel actually dives in and swims, and the audience thinks, “Why hasn’t he hit his chin?” We make it look as if it’s very shallow and then he completely disappears. We can almost do it like the movies, but in theatrical terms. We can make people gasp, and I’m happy to say they do.

We’re on until the theatre closes down, and I wish we could do it more. Various people have said, “Why don’t you come and do it here?” And we say, “OK, but you’ve got to take your floor out and put a giant water tank in.” And they go, “Oh, well, maybe not.” It’s a one-opportunity show — unless there are other theatres in a state of partial renovation.

In the last few years, you’ve guided the Almeida to become a major theatrical force in London. How do you decide which projects to take on?

For this tiny theatre in North London, we’ve always tried to re-invent ourselves. Once you do something people seem to like, we think not, “How can we do that again?” but, “How can we do something different?” The happiest sight really is on the final performance of a show. It’s sometimes sad, but as you’re watching the set come out, at the same time you’re watching another new set come in. And it’s that process of always going on to the next thing that I think is the essence of theatre.

Do you ever have time to relax?

Well, I had a few days in Australia. That was quite nice. I had a week between filming and I went to Melbourne, so that was a week. As far as possible, I try and keep Sundays free to do very little, or nothing. But I feel if I had too long to relax, I’d stop. The body would wind down, and I wouldn’t be able to wind it up again. I understand why George can’t wait to get into the editing suite, because although it’s intense, it’s also relaxing, because it’s what you want to do.

Star Wars has been so popular for so long. Do you think it’s something that will remain in people’s minds for years to come?

I think it’s entered the general consciousness. Just listening to kids talk about The Phantom Menace, and seeing them respond, one does feel that, as George has always hoped, this is a myth that will continue and which succeeding generations will take different things from. I’m confident about that. It’s a great story, and that’s always what does it to people. A great story is what we need.

You mentioned kids who were into The Phantom Menace. Since Episode I, are you recognized more on the street than you were before?

I’m happy to say not nearly as much as I thought. Yes, people come up now and again, but I can still go on public transport, which I quite like doing. Most people who do come up to me say, “It can’t be.” To which I say, “I guess you’re right — it can’t, it isn’t.” And they say, “Oh, OK, sorry.” Now, of course, the minute I open my mouth, they recognize the voice. Then they realize, but by that time, I’ve gone onto another tube.

I was once chased through a tube station. They were saying, “You’ve got to stop, you’re the Emperor, you’ve got to stop.” And I managed to run faster than them. They only wanted my autograph — it wasn’t anything sinister. I thought, “This is ridiculous — why didn’t I just stop and give my autograph and move on?” But it had gone too far by then.

So when you’re not running from autograph seekers, or running a theatre, you’re on call for possible Episode II pick-up shooting and looking forward to Episode III?

Yes, if it’s needed, I’ll be very happy to go. And I’m certainly looking forward to Episode III, but that’s a while away. I’m looking forward to what must inevitably happen in Episode III — and let’s say no more than that.

by Scott Chernoff

Just as a FYI, to avoid old posts becoming one with the Force, this post has been republished so it can be a blue glowy thing, it was Originally posted 2022-09-02 15:23:45.